Episode 11. Are You a Burned Out People Pleaser? with Nicole Byrne, LMFT
Can you be a people pleaser if you’re mean sometimes? How can people pleasers know if
Join Bethany Valenti as she chats with Nicole Byrne, a licensed marriage and family therapist specializing in people pleasing and burnout. In this episode, they discuss the signs of people pleasing, the impact of being a people pleaser on personal fulfillment, and the role of acceptance and commitment therapy (ACT). Nicole shares her five-point checklist for identifying trustworthy relationships and offers insights into managing people pleasing behaviors. They explore actionable strategies for self-compassion, setting boundaries, and fostering authentic connections.
Find more from Nicole:
Is This Person Trustworthy? A 5-Point Checklist for People-Pleasers
YouTube video: 5 traits of trustworthy people
Things & people we talked about:
Acceptance and Commitment Therapy
The Resident on Netflix
Kpop Demon Hunters on Netflix
The Big Year Film
Surface Pressure from Encanto
The Very Secret Society of Irregular Witches by Sangu Mandanna
House of the Cerulean Sea by TJ Klune
Transcript
Bethany Valenti
Welcome Nicole to the podcast.
nicolebyrne 1:10
Thank you. I am so thrilled to be here.
Bethany Valenti 1:13
I'm so thrilled to have you. I'm excited for our conversation today. Why don't you start out telling me what got you into therapy?
nicolebyrne 1:19
Oh gosh, that's a great question I have a lot of counselors and helpers in my family,
Bethany Valenti 1:25
Mm-hmm.
nicolebyrne 1:26
I think initially I was influenced. By them. And I have, for example, a specific aunt, and she always felt like my safe place. And she has sort of some of the qualities of a counselor. And that really changed me. And then the other piece is I think I had really good luck. well, my mom forced me into therapy when I was a teenager. I was going through typical teenage stuff and then she set up an appointment and then told me I had to go. And
Bethany Valenti 1:55
You're going,
nicolebyrne 1:56
as you can imagine, I was quite upset about that. Nevertheless. I had a great experience. and it was supportive. And so that influenced me. And then the final piece I'll say is my parents have their own interesting dysfunction. It's their homeostasis. And I think as a child I grew up, Almost like a translator. Like I can remember sitting at the dinner table noticing their inability to understand one another. as I got older, I would sometimes sit at the table and almost have this practice. Yeah. Like I think what she's saying is this, and I think what's happening is this. And so without wanting to, I was developing some of these skills of tracking and mirroring and empathizing. so I think those are the three big influential parts of, of my being a therapist.
Bethany Valenti 2:58
You were destined. You were bred for it.
nicolebyrne 3:01
Yeah. Yes.
Bethany Valenti 3:02
Honed into this.
nicolebyrne 3:03
Yes. it's a part of me. It's not like it turns on and off.
Bethany Valenti 3:07
Yeah.
nicolebyrne 3:07
I mean, it does to an extent, but most people that know me that I'm close to have that vibe from me. Yeah.
Bethany Valenti 3:14
It's such a nuanced thing because so many people are like, oh, are you analyzing me right now? And there are aspects of us that like, we are not gonna turn off all the time. But also like, no,
nicolebyrne 3:25
No, yeah,
Bethany Valenti 3:26
I'm at the park with my kids, like I'm a little distracted
nicolebyrne 3:29
right.
Bethany Valenti 3:29
I'm not gonna,
nicolebyrne 3:30
Absolutely.
Bethany Valenti 3:31
So do you feel like what brought you to therapy was sort of like, your big focus with some of your clients? Like, do you resonate with people pleasers?
nicolebyrne 3:43
Oh, 100%.
Bethany Valenti 3:45
Yeah. their stories connect with you, like they resonate with you.
nicolebyrne 3:48
Oh, for sure. I'm a self-proclaimed recovering people pleaser.
Bethany Valenti 3:53
Mm-hmm.
nicolebyrne 3:54
and I think I work with. women who are really, really burnt out. And I think often those two go hand in hand because when we're constantly working to be helpful and accommodating and say yes to others, that in turn can lead to depletion and burnout.
Bethany Valenti 4:13
Yeah.
nicolebyrne 4:14
I can relate to both of those.
Bethany Valenti 4:16
Absolutely. So, when did you start kinda working with people pleasers? Like when did you realize this is kind of a thing, this is, these are my people
nicolebyrne 4:25
Yeah, it was a progression because when I first started working, I worked in community mental health
Bethany Valenti 4:31
Mm-hmm.
nicolebyrne 4:31
I was working a lot with parents and children and families. and so it was probably. when I shifted into my private practice and I was I had all of this background in the educational mental health world and parenting and things like that, but I knew that that wasn't touching my heart for whatever reason. so as I started to see clients and I started to go through my own experiences and do my own work, I've done a lot of my own therapy and work it, it sort of just revealed itself in the clients that were coming to me and
Bethany Valenti 5:02
Mm-hmm.
nicolebyrne 5:03
the clients that I felt like, wow, we are really connecting and vibing and they're experiencing transformation
Bethany Valenti 5:10
It feels very magnetic.
nicolebyrne 5:11
Yeah. And then it just led me to the type of training that I was doing
Bethany Valenti 5:15
Mm-hmm.
nicolebyrne 5:16
yeah.
Bethany Valenti 5:17
Yeah. That's amazing. How do you define a people pleaser? are your clients ever like, what do you mean I'm not a people pleaser? And you're like, well, let's talk about what that means, like
nicolebyrne 5:27
I know it can sort of, sometimes I do feel a little hesitation around that term 'cause I never like to box people in. and the, that's, I think that's a really good question. I think that I define a people pleaser, well, I wanna start with the good parts. They are incredibly sensitive and attuned to others, and generally they value being of service, which is a great value.
Bethany Valenti 5:53
Mm-hmm.
nicolebyrne 5:54
The problem is, it can, become unbalanced such that they're no longer serving themselves and their needs.
Bethany Valenti 6:01
Mm-hmm.
nicolebyrne 6:02
so a real love and compassion for others. but the real big pinpoint for me is that their compass, so to speak, for. How to relate with people and what is a good and fulfilling relationship is based on people's dependence on them for being helpful, people's praise of them for being accommodating and flexible and willing,
Bethany Valenti 6:30
Mm-hmm.
nicolebyrne 6:31
rather than their own ease in the relationship. So a lot of times it's recognizing that, wow, like what I've been looking for, how I've been choosing how I relate is based on just constantly seeking kind of am I, am I okay? are they happy with me? Are we good? am I making things nice? Am I keeping the peace
Bethany Valenti 6:56
Mm-hmm.
nicolebyrne 6:57
Even if it's at the cost of their own, just like distress inside or their own exhaustion
Bethany Valenti 7:04
Hmm. Oh yeah. I definitely wanna come back to that. One of the things that came to mind though while you were talking was, did I do something wrong? Was what I was sort of wondering if that's part, did I do something wrong or is it even, it doesn't even have to be that I did something wrong. Could it be something bad happened and I need to support, just like even just like with my presence or like ability to fulfill needs, to be at the ready, like, what can that look like, do you think?
nicolebyrne 7:34
that you, you nailed it. There's a lot of uncovering, like, what is your mind saying
Bethany Valenti 7:42
Mm-hmm.
nicolebyrne 7:43
a person seems to be a little disappointed or, you set a boundary and what does your mind often say? And a lot of it is, it's all my fault,
Bethany Valenti 7:55
Mm-hmm.
nicolebyrne 7:56
you know, I've done something wrong. There's a real like. a sense of responsibility that is too much, right? Like, but it's all on me. It's all my fault.
Bethany Valenti 8:06
Mm-hmm.
nicolebyrne 8:07
I'm a bad person. I'm not worthy here unless this person is happy with me.
Bethany Valenti 8:12
Mm-hmm.
nicolebyrne 8:14
so that's when, the overthinking can kick in, like scrutinizing what you said and did and then coming back and maybe, over apologizing
Bethany Valenti 8:25
How to fix
nicolebyrne 8:25
and saying in fact, yeah. Or like, it's kind of like the example I give is like, someone, you ask for some help. You ask because you're really in need for, Hey, could you carpool? Like could you drop my kid off at school? And that feels really hard to do. And then in order to make up for it, you bake this person cookies.
Bethany Valenti 8:48
Hmm.
nicolebyrne 8:49
because it's so uncomfortable like that.
Bethany Valenti 8:51
you said no.
nicolebyrne 8:52
because you asked for help because
Bethany Valenti 8:53
'cause you asked for help. Okay. Okay. I flipped the script.
nicolebyrne 8:56
Yeah.
Bethany Valenti 8:57
it, the, it's the person asking, not like saying no to the picking up thing.
nicolebyrne 9:01
both are hard.
Bethany Valenti 9:02
fair,
nicolebyrne 9:02
Yeah.
Bethany Valenti 9:03
But the example you were giving was like, I'm having to ask somebody for something. Like,
nicolebyrne 9:07
Yeah.
Bethany Valenti 9:08
hugely vulnerable
nicolebyrne 9:10
Right.
Bethany Valenti 9:10
and if I can avoid asking people for something at all costs, most of the time I'm going to.
nicolebyrne 9:16
Mm-hmm. Mm.
Bethany Valenti 9:17
I'm gonna try and really show my appreciation to make sure that they know.
nicolebyrne 9:22
Yes. I'm gonna make up for it because my guilt is so, so big. I feel like I'm such a burden by asking this mom if she can drop my son off at school, that I'm gonna go and make a batch of cookies and bring them to her out of appreciation
Bethany Valenti 9:36
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
nicolebyrne 9:38
That's a very typical. Behavior.
Bethany Valenti 9:41
you see that a lot,
nicolebyrne 9:43
Yeah,
Bethany Valenti 9:43
'cause you work, you do people pleasing, but it's a lot of times like women with middle age, right? Like that's kind of your, the
nicolebyrne 9:51
yeah, yeah, I would.
Bethany Valenti 9:52
middle age, sorry, in middle age timeframe,
nicolebyrne 9:58
Mm-hmm.
Bethany Valenti 9:59
which I think starts at like 35 to 60, was that what it
nicolebyrne 10:04
Sure.
Bethany Valenti 10:05
okay.
nicolebyrne 10:05
I would say thirties, forties is like
Bethany Valenti 10:11
thirties-forties.
nicolebyrne 10:11
Typical. I do have a lot who are moms,
Bethany Valenti 10:15
Mm-hmm.
nicolebyrne 10:15
who have really high expectations of themselves, who, seem really put together,
Bethany Valenti 10:21
Yeah.
nicolebyrne 10:22
take on a lot. they're kind of like the manager of their family and they take on that role of just being full-time manager, whether that be of emotions, of schedules, of tasks. Mm-hmm.
Bethany Valenti 10:35
do you find that some people don't realize that they're people pleasers until they become moms or parents?
nicolebyrne 10:41
Yeah. I think so because a lot of people end up finally kind of crashing and burning
Bethany Valenti 10:47
Mm-hmm.
nicolebyrne 10:48
at some point in motherhood.
Bethany Valenti 10:50
that's where you're gonna get spread so thin
nicolebyrne 10:53
Yeah, for sure.
Bethany Valenti 10:54
in ways that we don't expect.
nicolebyrne 10:57
Yeah. I think that people come to me in two different phases of life. Sometimes it shows up after some type of ending of a relationship.
Bethany Valenti 11:08
Okay.
nicolebyrne 11:08
Or some real unhappiness in a relationship that's leading this person to think like, what's happening here?
Bethany Valenti 11:15
Yeah. Like what's wrong with me? What have I done?
nicolebyrne 11:17
Yeah.
Bethany Valenti 11:18
that's a, what did I do to this relationship, or what did I do to attract this? Like, okay, those are the things that I see with some of my people.
nicolebyrne 11:25
Right. Or sometimes people are just like, I don't really know what's happening, but things feel off and I
Bethany Valenti 11:31
okay.
nicolebyrne 11:31
can't figure it out.
Bethany Valenti 11:32
Yes.
nicolebyrne 11:33
Like I just, things don't feel, I'm starting to feel overwhelmed and I'm not like feeling like I usually feel, so there's that. And then a lot of time, yeah, like you said, moms, who already had these patterns ingrained in them, and then. Take on motherhood, which is just incredibly demanding and monotonous. And laborious and all of those things, and so then it's just like, yeah.
Bethany Valenti 12:02
Yeah. Familiar
nicolebyrne 12:03
Yes. How old are your kids?
Bethany Valenti 12:06
Yeah, that's, there it is. I have one that's almost two and one that's four and a half.
nicolebyrne 12:12
We are almost the same.
Bethany Valenti 12:13
Really? How old are yours?
nicolebyrne 12:14
Yeah.
Bethany Valenti 12:15
I thought yours were older
nicolebyrne 12:15
Yeah. No, my son just turned five and my daughter is like two and a quarter.
Bethany Valenti 12:21
Oh my God.
nicolebyrne 12:22
Yeah.
Bethany Valenti 12:24
Yeah. I'm like right behind you in both of
nicolebyrne 12:25
Mm-hmm.
Bethany Valenti 12:26
My, son was born March 18th, 21. And then, she was November, end of November 23.
nicolebyrne 12:33
My son just turned five, September 30th,
Bethany Valenti 12:36
Mm-hmm.
nicolebyrne 12:36
so he was born in 2020, and then my daughter turned to middle of July, so she's a 23 baby. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Bethany Valenti 12:44
So fun
nicolebyrne 12:45
Mm-hmm.
Bethany Valenti 12:47
So that actually just the monotony that you just like spoke to, just struck a real nerve for me because I think that, I would wonder if that would contribute to a sense of dissonance or discomfort when. I like being of service to other people. I like filling needs, but I am really annoyed with those that are asking me, or feeling like it's never enough. I personally, sometimes will just feel like I just spent like, all morning with my kid, like doing just about everything that he wanted, getting everything that he or she needed, and then like
nicolebyrne 13:21
Yeah.
Bethany Valenti 13:22
I'm just sitting here and they're still going mom, like, or crawling all over me in the moment that I'm trying to take a break. Not always, but it feels like those moments where you have given a lot, it still doesn't feel like enough.
nicolebyrne 13:37
Yeah. That is. So true of, of, I experienced that too. A lot of my clients. I think that, what happens when our default pattern is people pleasing, is that because we're so focused on what others want and need from us and how others are feeling, what gets lost is kind of this sense of what matters to me and what's meaningful to me?
Bethany Valenti 14:04
Mm-hmm.
nicolebyrne 14:04
are my values? And so you combine that with then being a mom, especially of little children that demand so much of us and where our focus is so much on taking care of them and their needs. that sense of kind of loneliness or aimlessness or just feeling really just Disconnected and unhappy can really show up. And so I work primarily from, an acceptance and commitment therapy perspective.
Bethany Valenti 14:39
Love. I'm a bit of a fan.
nicolebyrne 14:41
Yeah, I love it too. And so a lot of what we explore is what is meaningful,
Bethany Valenti 14:50
Yeah.
nicolebyrne 14:50
what their highest values are, and that's looking at what is realistic within that. where are there ways you can be in alignment with those things?
Bethany Valenti 15:01
Mm-hmm.
nicolebyrne 15:02
Yeah.
Bethany Valenti 15:02
sometimes our, different points of our life, like our values can conflict with each other or like, it just, so for instance, like, I like to think of especially with parenting, like relationships being, if relationships are your, a value of yours, then yeah, you are technically tending to relationships with your children. But that's not I mean, on the individual. That can be enough for somebody. and then there are some women whose identities are like, no, I need to like, really talk to somebody else about not children. Things like, or get out of my house for a little bit. Or, I think, you know, most moms need that to a point, but like, if it's not, I need to connect with people separate from my children and, and they're not getting that, but they're like, God, I spend time with people all the time and I'm tending to like, relationships. Like, why does that not make,
nicolebyrne 15:55
Right,
Bethany Valenti 15:55
it doesn't check the relationship box, I think is what I'm saying.
nicolebyrne 15:58
correct.
Bethany Valenti 15:58
sense?
nicolebyrne 15:59
And so then it's like talking about the quality of the relationship and what in that relationship is going to fill you, right?
Bethany Valenti 16:06
Yeah.
nicolebyrne 16:07
Yeah,
Bethany Valenti 16:08
Yeah. I feel like there's so many different ways we could go with that. And that's, I know you also like will sometimes work with like people who are burnt out, people who are high achieving. But it is also possible to be a people pleaser who is also high achiever and who is also very burnt out. do you find that those intersect a lot in the work that you do?
nicolebyrne 16:29
yeah. It's, it's pretty rare that it's just someone falls at the one box
Bethany Valenti 16:36
Mm-hmm.
nicolebyrne 16:37
the other. Most people feel exhausted, when they are in these frequent patterns. I think another really important point to make when you asked about how does one identify themselves in this, is that there is a lot of focus, on making others happy and all of these things. And going back to the I'm bad or it's my fault part, one of the things that we often will tap into, is how they are talking to themselves, what the story is that they're telling themselves. most of the time people that are especially really high achieving that really manage a ton that are constantly, there's a lot of lack of kindness to themselves,
Bethany Valenti 17:27
Mm-hmm. I find that
nicolebyrne 17:28
right.
Bethany Valenti 17:28
too.
nicolebyrne 17:29
like, why didn't, oh, I messed that up. Or why didn't I
Bethany Valenti 17:32
Mm-hmm.
nicolebyrne 17:33
Or, you know, kind of badgering themselves and judging themselves.
Bethany Valenti 17:38
Mm-hmm.
nicolebyrne 17:39
when our mind is frequently in a place of self-criticism and self judgment, that also wears on our energy and our nervous system, which leads to more exhaustion and depletion.
Bethany Valenti 17:51
Yeah. And, and that's, it's always nice to be able to say, because I think, I'll even, I've, I've said to people before, you know, we hear people say like, breathe like, or take a deep breath or whatever, but there's actually like science behind some of this stuff, you know? So for instance, like you were just describing, like, we're not just telling you to be nice to yourself because that's what therapists do. We're doing
nicolebyrne 18:11
Great.
Bethany Valenti 18:11
that because it makes sense
nicolebyrne 18:15
Yeah, because.
Bethany Valenti 18:16
like your nervous system needs like a gentle response to recover, to take pause. it's not going to necessarily get. Calmer if, or helped if you come at it, combatively.
nicolebyrne 18:30
Right. If you're like, okay, I'm gonna take a deep breath, but meanwhile I'm still like scrutinizing myself that I made that mistake. Yeah. It's like
Bethany Valenti 18:39
Incredibly aggravated.
nicolebyrne 18:40
mm-hmm. An incredibly aggravated breath. Yes. I mean, another component of that self-compassion and self-kindness, which is a huge aspect to act therapy, is that at some point, you know, people want to make some pivots in their life. Like they want to be better at asserting their needs. They want to be better at setting boundaries. They want to be better at thinking through, do I really want to do that? 'cause my knee jerk reaction is to say yes most of the time. And in order to have all of our faculties to do that, we have to have a calmer nervous system because it's like building a whole new skill. And it's
Bethany Valenti 19:24
Mm.
nicolebyrne 19:24
really uncomfortable and really scary for most people, you know?
Bethany Valenti 19:28
Yeah.
nicolebyrne 19:29
And so the first step is often tackling like, you know, how are we talking to ourselves? And let's work on sort of building that muscle of self-compassion and kindness and slowing ourselves down so that then we can, when we're ready to start making some shifts, we can be in a better place to do it.
Bethany Valenti 19:49
Yeah.
nicolebyrne 19:50
Yeah.
Bethany Valenti 19:50
of the things that I always loved about ACT was like, it's not even necessarily that you need to like, change all of your thoughts. It's just like, how are you harnessing them?
nicolebyrne 19:58
Mm-hmm.
Bethany Valenti 19:58
Or like, what are you doing with them when they come up? So the way I've often talked about that with clients is just like, I don't really know if thoughts are good or bad all the time, but like, is it helpful?
nicolebyrne 20:09
Right.
Bethany Valenti 20:09
Is it like effective? And, you know, sometimes we need to feel like we can criticize ourselves. This is, I, I literally think of like this one professor, Dr. Dragon, who like taught ACT in my program and just like how she was like, sometimes you're gonna call yourself an idiot, or you're gonna call yourself da, da da. Or like, sometimes you do need to have these different aspects of yourselves. Like, okay, let's talk about the mom. This is, I think she actually made this example, which was really good. But I picture even my own mom, who I do feel like was a very kind giving person, could be very people pleasing, but when it came to her children, She literally could like tear you down so fast. Like, you know, but was that necessarily nice, you know, probably not that it was very protective of her children and got the point across of like you don't speak to my children that way. You
nicolebyrne 21:01
Uhhuh.
Bethany Valenti 21:02
on behalf of someone else, which is another thing that you could probably talk about with people pleasing, but not necessarily for yourself all the time,
nicolebyrne 21:08
Right,
Bethany Valenti 21:09
going for,
nicolebyrne 21:10
right.
Bethany Valenti 21:10
but like that we can't ever necessarily be a hundred percent of everything all the time that we want to be, I think is what I sort of was going for there.
nicolebyrne 21:21
Yeah.
Bethany Valenti 21:21
actually useful to be a little mean sometimes. or like if we actually thought we were perfect all the time, maybe we wouldn't be the people we would wanna be. So we're not even necessarily shooting for perfect thoughts to flow in and out of your mind
nicolebyrne 21:36
No. No, definitely not. Definitely not. And our anger a lot of the times is valid and,
Bethany Valenti 21:44
Yeah. Information.
nicolebyrne 21:45
information. But, you know, going back to the thoughts piece and harnessing the thoughts, one of my favorite, ways that I like to describe it to my clients is I think of our mind as a problem solving machine.
Bethany Valenti 21:58
Mm-hmm.
nicolebyrne 21:59
It is not a truth teller,
Bethany Valenti 22:01
Mm-hmm.
nicolebyrne 22:02
so,
Bethany Valenti 22:03
Yes.
nicolebyrne 22:05
yeah.
Bethany Valenti 22:05
that. Yeah. I feel like that's like for what I love about ACT and just this type of therapy is that it really is so, it's actually very positive framing.
nicolebyrne 22:14
Yes.
Bethany Valenti 22:14
our brains are like just really, really good at what it, what it's doing, and so we just have to help it sometimes to like slow down because it's gonna go really, really fast at what it's used to doing too.
nicolebyrne 22:25
Right.
Bethany Valenti 22:26
make sense?
nicolebyrne 22:26
Yeah, it's, I think people feel a lot of relief when they're like, oh, its job is to problem solve. And a lot of times the mind wants to problem solve us away from our suffering and towards something like problem solving or making things better, right? That is what the mind is designed for. And sometimes it's useful and sometimes it's not. And so, you know, when I say to people, it's not a truth teller,
Bethany Valenti 22:55
Mm-hmm.
nicolebyrne 22:55
it's like, oh, okay. So the more that I can start noticing and catching what my mind says, the more I have a little choice around, is that helpful? Does that align with my values? Certain things that the mind says regularly. Like, why do we think your mind does that? Like there is a way that that's been protective or helpful.
Bethany Valenti 23:14
Yes.
nicolebyrne 23:14
Who you, like, your mind thinks it's helpful.
Bethany Valenti 23:17
Yeah. Yeah.
nicolebyrne 23:18
And now let's talk about what the cost on you is.
Bethany Valenti 23:20
Like you saw it somewhere,
nicolebyrne 23:22
You've heard it.
Bethany Valenti 23:22
you heard it.
nicolebyrne 23:23
Yeah.
Bethany Valenti 23:24
and it has been effective,
nicolebyrne 23:26
Yeah,
Bethany Valenti 23:26
and now it's not.
nicolebyrne 23:27
So, you know, most of us, it's sort of like, if you think of like our mind, all of our thoughts are like actors on a stage.
Bethany Valenti 23:37
Mm-hmm.
nicolebyrne 23:38
Most of us.
Bethany Valenti 23:39
Yes.
nicolebyrne 23:40
They want, like when we're ruminating or obsessively thinking we wanna go and take those actors and just shove 'em off the stage where it's like, gosh, I hate that. I can't stop thinking about this.
Bethany Valenti 23:50
Mm-hmm.
nicolebyrne 23:52
But really we know that that doesn't, unfortunately, work long term. So I like to tell my clients like, imagine you have a spotlight, right? And be in charge of like, if that thought pattern is going to lead you to over apologize and then burn yourself out and do the things that you're doing or whatever. Like we can change our spotlight of attention elsewhere, right? So yeah, act is full of metaphors. It's full of really beautiful reframes. I find that it makes a lot of sense for people.
Bethany Valenti 24:25
I love it. I love it so much. you've mentioned the over apologizing.
nicolebyrne 24:29
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Bethany Valenti 24:30
to come back to this. One of the things I've said to clients, is kind of like this idea of like, because what I do talk about with my clients is if there's a, if a value for you is kindness or if it is important to be kind, you can be kind while also. not giving too much of yourself, right? Like, and we can find that line of like, yeah, you can still say yes to people, but also on whether or not you're giving too much of yourself in this moment. Will that ultimately cost you later if you shove one more activity in there because someone asked you to help them out with something,
nicolebyrne 25:00
Right.
Bethany Valenti 25:01
even though you technically could do it
nicolebyrne 25:03
Mm-hmm.
Bethany Valenti 25:03
The reason I say that is that sometimes when, example of that is I still, you still want to apologize. You still feel pulled to apologize, and it's not necessarily feeling like you have to apologize, like
nicolebyrne 25:14
Right.
Bethany Valenti 25:14
stop apologizing because I don't, I feel like apologies are really meaningful. I think that taking responsibility for something is really helpful and if nobody apologized, if it's like, well, I'm not gonna apologize, then that's, it's the over part, right? And I think that's the part that would be great to just kind of like, just erase that over, apologizing out. so what I've said to people, I've read somewhere one time that, and I've tried this myself in life and I really, really like it, is, I have said to clients you often want to say, sorry if you say thank you instead
nicolebyrne 25:47
Hmm.
Bethany Valenti 25:48
that actually conveys just as much. Meaning and connection, and it's more of a gratitude and appreciation direction. Like, so you're acknowledging something in someone else, that they've done for you or whatever that is. So, thank you for waiting for me instead of, sorry I was late.
nicolebyrne 26:10
Right.
Bethany Valenti 26:10
thank you for listening instead of, I'm sorry I'm talking so much. or, and, and it is possible to say both of those things, but only ever being like, God, I'm so sorry all the time, is not always ideal. The other thing I say for people who have a really hard time with apologizing is, please don't say it more than twice, like.
nicolebyrne 26:31
That's a nice rule that people can follow.
Bethany Valenti 26:33
It helps me mentally,
nicolebyrne 26:35
Uhhuh.
Bethany Valenti 26:36
like I can explain it to people because sometimes I understand, we feel like we need to say sorry more than once because they want, you wanna make sure that the person like understood it. I think when we've all been a little bit mad at somebody, like sometimes we don't get take in the first apology and
nicolebyrne 26:50
Yeah.
Bethany Valenti 26:51
so I can understand how, if someone's like, no, no, no, I really just want you to know, I'm sorry. but especially if it's for something simple, like, I'm so sorry I asked you to help me get like, from the top shelf of the grocery store. You know what I mean? that's another thank you moment, but Can you like, please help me? and being able to say like, so sorry to interrupt. do you mind da da da da. Like, okay. Thank you. Sorry, I didn't wanna interrupt, but you don't need to like say sorry the entire way there, the entire way back. I've seen people do that.
nicolebyrne 27:18
Yes.
Bethany Valenti 27:19
I think that two. Enough to make sure that you are hopefully heard, and you're connecting that sentiment, you're communicating it without, again, giving too much of yourself. So I feel like it's a way to be in alignment with that value, without overextending, without leading into that over part. What do you think?
nicolebyrne 27:38
Yeah, I agree. I think that's especially useful for someone who does it a lot.
Bethany Valenti 27:43
Mm-hmm.
nicolebyrne 27:44
I would even go as far as to say the goal would be only to apologize if you've done something wrong,
Bethany Valenti 27:48
Mm-hmm.
nicolebyrne 27:49
because I do say, let's define an apology. It's if you've actually done something
Bethany Valenti 27:54
Oh,
nicolebyrne 27:54
wrong
Bethany Valenti 27:55
Mm-hmm.
nicolebyrne 27:56
otherwise asking. For a favor, or making a request or asking for help, that's not wrong. and so I do like offering some replacements. you can acknowledge appreciation. you can thank someone for their patience. You can. Right. but I think that a lot of the times I'll ask people like, what are you feeling when you apologize? Right. most of the time it's like, oh, I'm so uncomfortable, I'm so anxious. And it's like this way of trying to manage their anxiety,
Bethany Valenti 28:31
Yeah.
nicolebyrne 28:31
showing up, being visible and saying, I would like this from you.
Bethany Valenti 28:36
When I picture it in my mind, I picture the, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, like that very like hollow and jittery and kind of cold. Like, 'cause there's such a tension there, I think. And then replacing with like, the gratitude or, you know, the other stuff like that you were mentioning feels full and warm to me. Just the way I picture it, you're taking up space instead of trying to make yourself smaller
nicolebyrne 29:02
Yes, Absolutely. I agree. the kindness value, you know, one thing that I like to add is we often think about our values as it relates to how we're showing up for others. But a lot of the times I'll say, what about kindness for yourself?
Bethany Valenti 29:18
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. you have the skill. Let's redirect it.
nicolebyrne 29:22
Yes. So you matter too.
Bethany Valenti 29:25
Mm-hmm.
nicolebyrne 29:25
And what's kind is that both things can be true. That you care about being respectful when you ask for something or make a request and you're very considerate of others. And. What's also kind is to check in with what you need and to feel okay asking for that or you know, whatever it might be. So, because a lot of the times when we're exploring values, especially for my clients that are so other focused, there's a lot of forgetfulness around how am I applying that to myself?
Bethany Valenti 29:59
Mm-hmm.
nicolebyrne 30:00
Yeah.
Bethany Valenti 30:02
one of the questions that I would have is, is there kind of a distinction between a people pleaser and someone who just has a hard time saying no, just in general? Like, or are they always the same? Because I think didn't necessarily identify as a people pleaser, until I was starting to kinda like relate to some of the content I was seeing out there. but specifically because I have been kind of mean and hurtful to people in my, emotional moments. Right. And I don't connect that with a people pleaser, caricature in my mind, if that makes sense. So. then someone that I knew, who had been hurtful to me in the past, described themselves as a people pleaser. And I was like, what? Like, so it was really hard for me to put the two together. And I was refusing to see myself that way because I know that I had been hurtful to a friend of mine at least once, you know, and we had had a conflict around it. we repaired, we did all this stuff. and so I just really, when I was seeing this stuff about like, oh, people pleasers, I don't think that's me. but then I was reflecting on this and I asked my husband, do you think I'm a people pleaser? I didn't even get the question out. He was like, yes, like, but I'm not nice all the time.
nicolebyrne 31:21
Yeah, I think that that's probably, I think that it's true that. What I see is there's kind of two tracks for people pleasing. Like people pleasing is more about like the pattern of pleasing others in spite of your own needs and like, you know, overly accommodating and all of those things. But I think two things can happen when you get to a place of not listening to or getting your needs met or exhausting yourself, that resentment and distress builds. And that can be internalized,
Bethany Valenti 31:58
Yeah.
nicolebyrne 31:58
right? Or it can be externalized
Bethany Valenti 32:01
Mm-hmm.
nicolebyrne 32:02
it sometimes both, right? So maybe for you it can look like this passive aggressive, these passive aggressive moments where you're like, gosh, I wish I wouldn't have said that, or,
Bethany Valenti 32:11
Yeah.
nicolebyrne 32:12
You've been holding something in or, and for some people for,
Bethany Valenti 32:17
You really kind of hit that on the head, by the way.
nicolebyrne 32:19
right, I'm just taking wild guess.
Bethany Valenti 32:22
Yeah. Good job,
nicolebyrne 32:24
Yeah.
Bethany Valenti 32:24
Good job, therapist.
nicolebyrne 32:25
Right. Something like that. Or it could be, yeah, internalized and maybe most people see this person as nice, but they're, you know, not doing a good job of really taking care of themselves and they're quite depressed and feeling very lonely and isolated.
Bethany Valenti 32:43
Yeah.
nicolebyrne 32:43
it's
Bethany Valenti 32:43
like just bad boundaries,
nicolebyrne 32:45
yeah.
Bethany Valenti 32:46
Yeah.
nicolebyrne 32:47
So, no, I don't think people pleasing means you're always nice. I do think there is frequently back to kindness. One of the things I'll often distinguish from my clients is the difference between kindness versus being nice. Because I think a lot of times being nice is sort of like making sure everyone's okay, like saying things, not wanting to ruffle any feathers. I'll often give an example of, you know, imagine that I have lipstick all over my teeth. And colleague one sees me and she's like, I'm gonna be really nice. I'm gonna pretend like I don't see it. I'm not gonna tell her I don't want, I don't wanna embarrass her. Right? Like, that seems really nice. Colleague number two, who really values kindness says, you know, Nicole has a bunch of meetings after this and she's gonna be talking to a lot of people. And I bet you even if it's uncomfortable in this moment, and even if she feels a little embarrassed for me to share with her that she has lipstick on her teeth, I think that she's going to appreciate that she takes care of this now and doesn't have hours more of.
Bethany Valenti 34:05
find out about it forever from now.
nicolebyrne 34:07
Right. And there's a lot of bravery in that,
Bethany Valenti 34:11
Mm-hmm.
nicolebyrne 34:12
So, you know, I think that is often really helpful in thinking about like, are you willing to tolerate your own discomfort in the name of being really kind or being in whatever value it is. Right. Because being nice sometimes is about, I don't wanna tolerate the discomfort.
Bethany Valenti 34:33
yeah. Yeah. That is such a powerful distinction. Did you ever read the book? did you ever read the book? I think it's the Irregular Society for Some Kind of Witches or whatever.
nicolebyrne 34:45
but should I?
Bethany Valenti 34:46
It's super cute.
nicolebyrne 34:47
Okay.
Bethany Valenti 34:48
Did you read House of the Cerulean Sea at all?
nicolebyrne 34:51
No.
Bethany Valenti 34:52
They kind of are similar.
nicolebyrne 34:53
Okay.
Bethany Valenti 34:54
they're cozy fantasy, so kind of fantasy adjacent.
nicolebyrne 34:57
Okay.
Bethany Valenti 34:57
not super deep fantasy like reading Lord of the Rings
nicolebyrne 35:00
Okay.
Bethany Valenti 35:00
I'm a reader. I don't know if you can tell, but
nicolebyrne 35:02
Love that.
Bethany Valenti 35:04
essentially there's this theme in the Witches one where this, woman has like kind of grown up without parents. I think she was an orphan, but she was very isolated and just felt very much like a lot of her caretakers were not always there for her. and they kind of rotated out. And she kind of like draws this distinction with multiple people in her life. some people are good and some people are kind,
nicolebyrne 35:28
Hmm.
Bethany Valenti 35:28
I think it's kind of using a little bit of different words, but it's speaking to like. What you're speaking to, right?
nicolebyrne 35:36
Yeah.
Bethany Valenti 35:36
we can be nice, we can be in that case, this was like, I think set in like the UK so it's like, I don't think they use nice in the same way that we do that, the way they were speaking. So like, I think in that context it was like the nicest kind and the kindness that you were speaking to. Like the way she was talking about was good. So to
nicolebyrne 35:53
Yeah,
Bethany Valenti 35:53
was like, yeah, I had some caretakers that were nice to me, but they also left me and never spoke to me again. You know what I mean? So sometimes that Nice. Also sounds very hollow,
nicolebyrne 36:05
yeah,
Bethany Valenti 36:06
time.
nicolebyrne 36:06
yeah.
Bethany Valenti 36:06
Or how some people are like, you said the thing that was nice, but did you follow through with it?
nicolebyrne 36:11
Right, right.
Bethany Valenti 36:12
the kindness that is
nicolebyrne 36:14
Yeah.
Bethany Valenti 36:15
more than just nice, right?
nicolebyrne 36:16
Yeah.
Bethany Valenti 36:17
I'm here for you anytime. You just let me know. but then like you reach out and then they're not there,
nicolebyrne 36:23
Correct.
Bethany Valenti 36:23
super reinforcing to someone who is people pleasing and anxious about reaching out,
nicolebyrne 36:29
Yeah, for sure. For sure. Yeah. That hollowness, it's, I think of that because a lot of, what comes up for people pleasers is this desire to be more authentic.
Bethany Valenti 36:42
Mm-hmm.
nicolebyrne 36:43
Right. And I do think there is something, you know, related to like, yeah, this does feel hollow or shallow, and I wanna be more authentic. I was just having this conversation with one of my clients about a colleague that asked her for some feedback and she was like, my inclination is just to be like, it was fine.
Bethany Valenti 37:03
Mm.
nicolebyrne 37:03
know, even though that's not really her truth. And I was, and it was sort of like, are you willing to tolerate the discomfort of giving her some honest feedback that's actually gonna help her and serve her? And there's a way to be kind and to be respectful in that, right? And so that was like, yeah, I wanna be more authentic. It's like you don't trust in people as much when it doesn't feel like someone's being fully authentic. And being authentic means sometimes saying the hard things. So
Bethany Valenti 37:35
Yeah.
nicolebyrne 37:37
yeah.
Bethany Valenti 37:37
Do you ever find that the people that you work with are really taking a stand? It's really just like the simplest thing.
nicolebyrne 37:43
Yeah, yeah. It's like the simplest things that are the hardest things.
Bethany Valenti 37:47
I said, "not right now."
nicolebyrne 37:49
Yeah. Seriously. Well, or the simplest thing of like, I don't know,
Bethany Valenti 37:55
Mm-hmm.
nicolebyrne 37:56
you know, in response to, Hey, can you do this thing? Or, Hey, can you come here? Whatever it is, when the default is, yeah, sure.
Bethany Valenti 38:03
Mm-hmm.
nicolebyrne 38:04
But the simplest thing sometimes is, I don't know. I need to think about that. Let me get back to you.
Bethany Valenti 38:11
Let me check.
nicolebyrne 38:13
Yeah.
Bethany Valenti 38:14
Absolutely.
nicolebyrne 38:15
Yeah.
Bethany Valenti 38:15
like I said, there's so many different ways we can go with this.
nicolebyrne 38:18
I know there's so much to talk about.
Bethany Valenti 38:21
So if there is someone, so there's people who like, may not see themselves as people pleasers or have confusion around, like what that means. So we touched on that like you described yourself at the beginning as a recovering people pleaser. What is it like to like, be in recovery? Like, is that, is there anything that it looks different that the work that you're doing is different?
nicolebyrne 38:44
Yeah. Well, you know, I still fall into my patterns, but really what it looks like is, I think that I've, I'm more observant and able to look at people objectively, and I'm more comfortable. Making space for myself. so a lot of times when I've worked with people and maybe we've unraveled some of their patterns and they have a better sense of, themselves and the reason that they do the things that they do and how it's not working for them, and they're ready to start pivoting and doing things a little bit differently. Sometimes, a lot of the relationships that they have had have been really lopsided, right? Where
Bethany Valenti 39:32
Yes.
nicolebyrne 39:33
give and they give and they give, and you know, they get really resentful because then, they ask for one thing or whatever it is, and they're not feeling like they're getting much in return.
Bethany Valenti 39:46
Yeah.
nicolebyrne 39:47
They don't feel really seen and known, like, gosh, I'm so curious and I'm always so helpful and I wanna like, but they don't receive that in turn. So then it starts to become, well, how do I start to engage in and develop relationships with people in such a way that feels more fulfilling, feels more balanced, feels more reciprocated? How do I know that like someone is trustworthy? Right? And so, you know, one of the, it's been sort of in part through my ACT training and in part through my own work with clients, that I will give them a little bit of like a five point checklist of here are traits, here are five traits that I want you to look out for. And there's also ways that they need to be showing up in order to determine those traits.
Bethany Valenti 40:41
Okay. Ooh. Like, like what?
nicolebyrne 40:44
Yeah, so the first trait, and these are gonna seem like they're obvious, right? But it's helpful I think when you can almost have them on paper or something. the first is considerate. So they respect your needs. There's no guilt tripping you. when you express a preference, or say no to something, there isn't a way in which they make you feel like you are demanding or selfish. even if they're feeling disappointed, they're not punishing you for it,
Bethany Valenti 41:15
Right,
nicolebyrne 41:16
right?
Bethany Valenti 41:16
someone being expressing disappointment is different than like guilting you,
nicolebyrne 41:20
Right. Exactly. Exactly. part of the work is actually saying.
Bethany Valenti 41:26
Trying to distinguish between those things
nicolebyrne 41:27
Well, I was actually saying, you know, they're right to feel disappointed if this person really likes you and was really looking forward to hanging out with you and now for whatever reason, you're not able to, it's okay for them to feel disappointed, that's legitimate,
Bethany Valenti 41:41
Yeah.
nicolebyrne 41:42
we are meant to feel like our feelings are data and they're important. and that disappointment is basically saying, I really liked this person. I was really looking forward to this, and now we're not doing it.
Bethany Valenti 41:52
Mm-hmm.
nicolebyrne 41:53
And a considerate person is not going to put that on them in this really kind of guilt trippy way.
Bethany Valenti 41:59
Mm-hmm.
nicolebyrne 42:00
but part of what I will often, tell my clients is in order to actually notice if someone is considerate, you also have to be willing. To be showing up more honestly. Meaning you need to say no to things if you really don't wanna do them. You need to show up and share your preference if you have one, right? Because how the person responds, You will get to see how is this person considering me when I show up in these ways? A lot of times, most of my people pleasers, it's like they don't even let that happen because they're just sort of overcorrecting and showing up and taking care of
Bethany Valenti 42:40
I noticed in myself in other people when I was, when a little more so when I was younger, I really have tried to break myself of this habit. if I felt like I was talking too much. It wasn't that I was like over apologizing for like, oh, like, I'm so sorry. I'm talking so much. would like be sharing something. And I didn't wanna seem like I was complaining. I didn't wanna seem like I was like burdening. So oftentimes. I would frame it at the end. And it's so funny to talk about it because it feels kind of almost like it's not an emotional manipulation because I genuinely wanted to say it to like give people an out, but I always was like, it's fine though, at the end. Have you ever heard that or people like do that?
nicolebyrne 43:28
Right. just, let me minimize my experience.
Bethany Valenti 43:31
sort of just like minimize it or package it up so that if you all wanna move on from it, I totally gave you that out. And sometimes that was also, sometimes it was a, it's fine though. Like I really don't wanna keep talking about it right now, but a lot of the time it was, it's fine though, like, because I don't want to burden you and I would rather have the reassurance from you to like, keep talking about it. It was kind of like a window as to whether or not they can ask follow up questions or they can move on and the times where I would've preferred the follow up questions or maybe needed the follow up questions, I didn't get what I needed. Right.
nicolebyrne 44:10
Yeah,
Bethany Valenti 44:11
and so I think it's one of those, it turned into a very dangerous game to play. You know what I mean? Of like, are you a, are you really asking for, is it fine? Is it really, like, I think I really got called out for it a lot in grad school. People would be like, it's not though.
nicolebyrne 44:26
it's not that.
Bethany Valenti 44:27
I had enough therapists around me who were like, it's not fine though.
nicolebyrne 44:30
What do you think you were scared of? That made it's fine though.
Bethany Valenti 44:35
kinda like the burdening or sounding like I was complaining too much. Talking too much like, yeah,
nicolebyrne 44:41
A lot of too much. That comes up a lot.
Bethany Valenti 44:43
too much. Yeah. Did you, okay. And I don't know if your kids are watching it or not. My nieces are my, I've tried to get my kids to watch this kind of, K-pop, demon hunters,
nicolebyrne 44:51
I have heard about this, but no,
Bethany Valenti 44:53
I'm gonna have to talk about this with somebody on this podcast at some point.
nicolebyrne 44:57
Is it good?
Bethany Valenti 44:59
it's worth a watch. I think it does some really great stuff. Therapeutic, like, just emotionally. At one point I watched it with, one of my friends who's also a therapist, and at one point they're saying something in the beginning and I turned to her and I was like, oh, so we're really going with the frozen approach here. And she was like, oh yeah, conceal don't feel.
nicolebyrne 45:17
Mm-hmm.
Bethany Valenti 45:17
and so it really is sort of that similar message of like, if you're trying to hide it and you're trying to shove it down, it's gonna grow and it's gonna get bigger and bigger and all of that. There's a character in there, who's, and a moment where people are kind of being, like, all of their insecurities are like It's toward the end, like the bad guys are kind of taking over and when she gets taken over, the thought that goes through her head is, You're too much and not enough. And, and I, that just hits me in like a whole other human level And I feel like I've, I've talked with clients about. Again, I worked with like college students. did you ever watch Encanto with your kids
nicolebyrne 45:59
I,
Bethany Valenti 46:00
or did you watch
nicolebyrne 46:00
so we are just recently getting Disney, so we're catching up.
Bethany Valenti 46:04
okay. That's all right.
nicolebyrne 46:05
Mm-hmm.
Bethany Valenti 46:05
Totally get that.
nicolebyrne 46:06
I feel like so far I'm like zero for whatever, four, five.
Bethany Valenti 46:11
So references
nicolebyrne 46:12
Between the books and the movies,
Bethany Valenti 46:14
Go watch Encanto Like the, the stuff on like the generational trauma and like the people pleasing
nicolebyrne 46:20
I wanna watch it.
Bethany Valenti 46:21
the shifting for expectations like that, that one,
nicolebyrne 46:25
Yeah.
Bethany Valenti 46:25
there's this song called Surface Pressure and I have like literally talked with this, unpacked this song with multiple clients. it's just like this idea that you're under pressure to meet all the needs of everyone everywhere,
nicolebyrne 46:41
Yeah.
Bethany Valenti 46:41
of can't say no to take care of yourself.
nicolebyrne 46:43
right.
Bethany Valenti 46:44
That's literally the message of the song and so would wonder if some of your mom clients
nicolebyrne 46:51
Oh yeah, that's For sure,
Bethany Valenti 46:52
resonate with them.
nicolebyrne 46:53
For sure. We talk about the pressure feeling like pressure cooker, and that's where the reactivity can be, where it's like you're not nice and you are right. Because anyone that's under that kind of pressure, it's going to bubble over.
Bethany Valenti 47:07
Yes. and it touches on some of the themes that you were talking about earlier. Like I literally can just pull out lines, from memory from this song. give it to your sister, your sister's older, to give her all the heavy things we can't shoulder. Like it touches was that the role that you were given? Kinda like what we were talking about at the beginning. it to her. She's, your sister's stronger. See if she can hang on a little longer. who am I if I can't carry the ball?
nicolebyrne 47:28
Right,
Bethany Valenti 47:29
no mistakes, no pressure
nicolebyrne 47:30
There's been, yeah, you've been over, you've almost identified. It's like, well who am I if I'm not helpful? If I'm not someone that's always sort of being selfless, right?
Bethany Valenti 47:40
Yeah.
nicolebyrne 47:40
Music is amazing how it can bring all of this up and, you know, going back to the, it's fine, well, we'll go back to the list, but even going back to, we can go through the list fast, but even, even going back to the, it's fine,
Bethany Valenti 47:53
Yeah.
nicolebyrne 47:54
Which is like, which is very common. There's a lot of, but, but I'm okay or let's move on. Or all these ways that we can kind of minimize our experience. What ends up happening? 'cause you, you, you said it, you were like, there were times where I really wanted people to ask me questions and follow up. I was really needing the support and I said it's fine. And people didn't. Didn't do it. And a lot of times what I'll say is, we need to really think about your part in this and how you're showing up, which is reinforcing kind of this story that you aren't good enough or you don't deserve to have people like really help you or that really like it is just all on you to shoulder.
Bethany Valenti 48:41
Or you wanna look like you have it all together,
nicolebyrne 48:43
Right.
Bethany Valenti 48:44
But in the meantime you're missing out on what you could Have.
nicolebyrne 48:47
yeah.
Bethany Valenti 48:48
Ways to frame it, maybe to a people pleaser, I've said it nicer than this, but that in some ways, like you're kind of preemptively robbing not everybody. 'cause not everybody's gonna be that person for you or be your support system. And that's like the distinction that I make with people sometimes of like, it's okay to pick your people, you can choose who to open up to and when
nicolebyrne 49:06
Yeah.
Bethany Valenti 49:07
but one of the things is that if you shut down everybody, first off, you don't get to find out who those people are very well. And two, you're kind of like taking the opportunity away from them to get to know you better
nicolebyrne 49:18
Absolutely. it's a loss
Bethany Valenti 49:21
Yeah.
nicolebyrne 49:21
Yeah. So there is, you know,
Bethany Valenti 49:24
was going back to your list
nicolebyrne 49:25
so going back to my list, these are things to look for, but there's a lot of always thinking about what's my part in this,
Bethany Valenti 49:32
Yes.
nicolebyrne 49:32
right?
Bethany Valenti 49:33
Yeah.
nicolebyrne 49:33
So, the second is sincerity,
Bethany Valenti 49:37
Mm-hmm.
nicolebyrne 49:38
which is basically like my words and my actions match, right? So if they promise or say they're gonna do something, they do. If they can't, they communicate it right. But a lot of times, I think that for a lot of my clients, when they interact with someone that's really sincere, they notice that their nervous system really relaxes because they've gotten so skillful at mind reading and investigating and, you know, a lot if they're in sort of some of these relationships with people that aren't as trustworthy, that are sort of takers of their health and whatnot. There is a lot of experiences of sort of them not being sincere. And then my client's feeling like there's something off, but I just don't get it. And then they go to this place of overthinking every interaction and what to do and how did it happen. So sincerity, right? You can really feel it when someone really, you know, their words and their actions match. So that's really important.
Bethany Valenti 50:44
Mm-hmm.
nicolebyrne 50:44
And the next is responsible. So, pretty self-explanatory, but it really is a big deal. Like it's really noticing someone takes ownership of their mistakes in a real mature way.
Bethany Valenti 51:01
so huge.
nicolebyrne 51:02
it's not like I did this, but,
Bethany Valenti 51:04
Mm-hmm. Or
nicolebyrne 51:05
um, you know, gaslighting or deflecting or blaming,
Bethany Valenti 51:09
Mm-hmm.
nicolebyrne 51:09
really like, Hey, I really missed, I really messed up there. That's on me.
Bethany Valenti 51:14
Mm-hmm.
nicolebyrne 51:14
and again, for my clients, there's this tendency to wanna step in and overcorrect for people, right? Or to, to say like, oh, it's okay. Or
Bethany Valenti 51:28
Yeah. Reassure.
nicolebyrne 51:29
Reassure or to think about maybe. Why it might be their fault and or even, you know, going back to apologizing sometimes when they didn't do anything wrong, they end up in a position of apologizing just to keep peace. And, the person on the other end hasn't taken any responsibility. They've just blamed or gaslit them or whatever. So, responsibility is huge. these kind of overlap, but the fourth one is reliable.
Bethany Valenti 52:02
Mm-hmm.
nicolebyrne 52:02
so there's some overlap between sincerity and reliability. so it's kind of a similar thing, like, they follow through with what they say if they say they're gonna do something. you just know when someone is reliable, And like
Bethany Valenti 52:16
More often than not, 'cause everyone has like something come up or if like your mom's and
nicolebyrne 52:20
right.
Bethany Valenti 52:20
we all gotta be flexible when we're moms
nicolebyrne 52:22
For sure,
Bethany Valenti 52:23
of life and stuff.
nicolebyrne 52:24
for sure.
Bethany Valenti 52:25
If we're noticing that like this is a ongoing pattern with someone
nicolebyrne 52:29
Yes,
Bethany Valenti 52:30
showing up.
nicolebyrne 52:31
sure. And I think, again, it's not about perfection, it's about even if someone says they're gonna do something and then something comes up, like how are they communicating that to you?
Bethany Valenti 52:40
Yes.
nicolebyrne 52:41
right.
Bethany Valenti 52:42
agree. Yep.
nicolebyrne 52:44
Yeah. So then the last one is competent. And I think there's a lot of pieces to this, right? But I think of competency in terms of like a person's ability to manage their emotional life to an extent, right? Like we all want and need support and we all wanna share, but you know, it goes back to the person that feels disappointed, right? A competent person knows that their disappointment is warranted and. Simultaneously respects and appreciate the other person and their needs and isn't going to guilt trip them,
Bethany Valenti 53:24
Yeah.
nicolebyrne 53:24
they're also not someone who's like just constantly dumping on you and essentially making you their unpaid therapist or,
Bethany Valenti 53:31
Yep.
nicolebyrne 53:31
you know, just sort of like roping you into always fixing and taking care of them and all of these types of things, right?
Bethany Valenti 53:38
Mm-hmm.
nicolebyrne 53:39
so that's, those are the five top ones that I will often just review and really work on. Let's just. with every interaction, with every boundary you set, with every ask you have, as you're pausing and slowing down, I want us to objectively be looking at these characteristics. Right? Again, it's not perfection. a trustworthy person will mostly exhibit these for the most.
Bethany Valenti 54:06
Right, And it's kind of touch points. It's almost like looking for green flags in a way,
nicolebyrne 54:11
Exactly. the thing about ACT is it's a lot less about reducing symptoms, and it's a lot more about what you wanna move towards.
Bethany Valenti 54:20
Yep.
nicolebyrne 54:21
similarly here, let's just keep our eyes out for red flags
Bethany Valenti 54:25
Mm-hmm.
nicolebyrne 54:26
talk about looking for these green flags. Right. And, and observing and being curious about those. Yeah. Yeah. So,
Bethany Valenti 54:36
Oh, I love that. thank you so much for sharing it. We'll definitely
nicolebyrne 54:40
okay.
Bethany Valenti 54:40
for that here in a minute. Can people get that
nicolebyrne 54:43
Yeah. I write a lot of blogs, so it's on my website, which is counseling with nicole.com and one of my blogs it's called, is this person Trustworthy, A five point Checklist for People Pleasers.
Bethany Valenti 54:57
title.
nicolebyrne 54:59
yeah, and I also have a video about it on YouTube, if people prefer video, so
Bethany Valenti 55:04
Okay. I'll like make sure to link those. are you ready for our wrap up questions?
nicolebyrne 55:08
Yes,
Bethany Valenti 55:09
Okay. So where are you licensed?
nicolebyrne 55:12
I'm licensed in California and Nevada.
Bethany Valenti 55:16
Nevada. Do you currently have openings?
nicolebyrne 55:18
I do have openings.
Bethany Valenti 55:20
Okay. And we've, the next one's about theoretical orientation. We pretty much have said acceptance and commitment therapy.
nicolebyrne 55:26
Yeah.
Bethany Valenti 55:27
a lot of shoutouts
nicolebyrne 55:28
Yes, the, we, I think we've covered that. I'm also trained in EMDR and flash technique, so
Bethany Valenti 55:35
sorry, did you say floss?
nicolebyrne 55:36
called Flash Technique.
Bethany Valenti 55:38
Okay. I said floss.
nicolebyrne 55:39
Yeah. it's another trauma processing evidence based therapy. It's, it's, a little less intense than EMDR and it can be just as effective. So,
Bethany Valenti 55:53
I might wanna have you back so we can talk about that.
nicolebyrne 55:55
yeah.
Bethany Valenti 55:56
That sounds interesting.
nicolebyrne 55:57
Mm-hmm.
Bethany Valenti 55:57
do you take insurance?
nicolebyrne 55:59
No, I do not take insurance.
Bethany Valenti 56:01
what is your current fee?
nicolebyrne 56:03
My current fee is 250
Bethany Valenti 56:06
250
nicolebyrne 56:06
for 50 minute
Bethany Valenti 56:08
For 50. and are you online or in person, or both? Both.
nicolebyrne 56:11
sessions. I am exclusively online right now. Yeah.
Bethany Valenti 56:14
I mean, I live that life, so there with you.
nicolebyrne 56:17
Yeah.
Bethany Valenti 56:18
what do you like to nerd out about
nicolebyrne 56:21
I mean, I love to nerd out about all the things we talked about today. Sometimes it's like, oh my gosh, I need to stop.
Bethany Valenti 56:28
You mean didn't just see us do in real time.
nicolebyrne 56:31
yeah, yeah. I, it's actually bad. like, I need to find something that's like separate from this, but it, this truly is my passion and I'm always reading books that are related to my growth in therapy and psychology and relational type stuff. I recognize that it would probably be good for me to, have some other outlets and whatnot. but I love, you know, right now. Meals feel like more of a chore. but normally speaking I'm like, I love reading recipes. I love reading restaurant reviews and trying
Bethany Valenti 57:09
Yeah.
nicolebyrne 57:09
food and like that is,
Bethany Valenti 57:12
Foodie stuff is what I'm hearing.
nicolebyrne 57:14
Foodie stuff.
Bethany Valenti 57:16
Stuff.
nicolebyrne 57:16
Foodie stuff.
Bethany Valenti 57:17
I love that, Too. Yeah. This, this phase of life with the littles makes it really, really hard.
nicolebyrne 57:22
Yes. It sure does.
Bethany Valenti 57:24
I made a quiche a few months ago and it was like the first time I had cooked, and it was like, wonderful. But I was like, we'll see when I do this ever again.
nicolebyrne 57:32
Yeah.
Bethany Valenti 57:33
you know,
nicolebyrne 57:34
Yeah, I dream of, I recognize my limits, you know, as a recovering, like people pleaser around more things to take on and take care of given that my kids are in the phase of life that they're in. But I dream of. Having, a garden with more like food, growing more food and just, I love all of that type of thing. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Bethany Valenti 57:57
I've got like a Pinterest board with those different ways of home gardening and stuff like that. It's just all sitting there if I ever wanted to do
nicolebyrne 58:02
Yeah.
Bethany Valenti 58:03
it.
nicolebyrne 58:03
Yes. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Bethany Valenti 58:05
do you have any pets?
nicolebyrne 58:06
No, I don't have any pets. I grew up with two parrots
Bethany Valenti 58:10
That's cool.
nicolebyrne 58:12
It is cool though. I do not recommend them as pets. I don't actually think that they should be however they speak. Speaking of demanding, you know, they are very social. They're very social. They're never alone. They mate for life with one partner and so. I saw the demands of them growing up and the way they were destroying parts of the house and like that. And so, yeah, I just have a fair amount of boundaries right now around like my capacity. But I do love animals and I could see it at some point.
Bethany Valenti 58:43
Yeah, at some point, but knowing not now can also be sometime later, what do you find comforting?
nicolebyrne 58:52
Oh, I mean, I cherish my friendships.
Bethany Valenti 58:57
Mm.
nicolebyrne 58:59
and I have a couple, I have a cousin who's we call each other like sister cousins,
Bethany Valenti 59:03
I love
nicolebyrne 59:04
relationship for me is, you know, is, is there's a lot of comfort. I just really, really love some of those. especially like a walk and a talk. coffee is comforting. Ice cream going back to my food.
Bethany Valenti 59:18
next question was gonna be coffee or tea
nicolebyrne 59:20
Oh. Um,
Bethany Valenti 59:22
guessing coffee.
nicolebyrne 59:23
Yeah. but I think like being outside, you know, um, uh, just comfort. Yeah. When I think about just walking and being outside and where I live now, it's like the sound of the birds is incredible. There's a lot of birding here, so
Bethany Valenti 59:40
Mm.
nicolebyrne 59:41
I find that comforting. Yeah. My bed. That's comforting.
Bethany Valenti 59:45
bed, yes, bed, but you can always come back to bed. that just total side note, I have not watched this, but there's this show on Netflix called The Resident about a murder that happens in the White House. A friend of mine told me about it. Apparently, like the detective that like comes in to solve a crime is into birding.
nicolebyrne 1:00:03
Oh really? It's a thing. It's a thing.
Bethany Valenti 1:00:07
it's totally a thing. There's also a movie with Steve Martin and Jack Black and Luke Wilson, called the Big Year It's about competitive, birdwatching. it's a little older and I don't think it's as mainstream, but I watched it years ago and it's just charming. It's adorable.
nicolebyrne 1:00:22
You very up to date on.
Bethany Valenti 1:00:25
I am Absolutely not. the amount of stuff that I actually don't know see as, as you notice I said there's this thing called The Resident, and I'm aware of it because my friend watched it.
nicolebyrne 1:00:34
well,
Bethany Valenti 1:00:34
I keep up with my friends
nicolebyrne 1:00:35
yeah, yeah, yeah.
Bethany Valenti 1:00:37
They tell me what's going on.
nicolebyrne 1:00:38
Mm-hmm.
Bethany Valenti 1:00:39
That same friend is the one who got me to watch K-Pop Demon Hunters.
nicolebyrne 1:00:41
Got it.
Bethany Valenti 1:00:42
and my nieces love it. So that actually did me a favor.
nicolebyrne 1:00:45
Okay.
Bethany Valenti 1:00:46
what is, your favorite skill to give a client?
nicolebyrne 1:00:48
Mm, that's really hard,
Bethany Valenti 1:00:51
Mm-hmm.
nicolebyrne 1:00:52
Going back to the mind as a problem solving machine versus it being a truth teller. I think that the skill of, in ACT, we call it diffusion, which is the ability to catch and notice what your mind is saying so that you have more Almost like oxygen between yourself and your mind so that you have more agency to choose
Bethany Valenti 1:01:14
More space.
nicolebyrne 1:01:15
more space. That. Is one of my favorite,
Bethany Valenti 1:01:20
Mm-hmm.
nicolebyrne 1:01:21
skills. And with that comes the self kindness and how we can start to talk to ourselves and so much you can build on.
Bethany Valenti 1:01:29
Yeah, because right, the defusion is the idea that we're also like the, the dusing is because we are fused to potentially certain narratives, certain thoughts
nicolebyrne 1:01:38
yes.
Bethany Valenti 1:01:39
that might come with additional messages and sensory. So it's not just like, like just calling yourself stupid or, worrying about like people being mad at you or something like that. There's often, like, we have like something that's like fused to that. Right. Is that kind of a helpful way to sort of describe that?
nicolebyrne 1:02:02
Yeah.
Bethany Valenti 1:02:03
I like,
nicolebyrne 1:02:04
I.
Bethany Valenti 1:02:04
I'm trying to simplify it
nicolebyrne 1:02:06
it's possible you're adding in a way that I hadn't thought about. I think that what you're saying, there's a lot of truth to it,
Bethany Valenti 1:02:12
Mm-hmm.
nicolebyrne 1:02:12
the way that I usually think about fusion is it feels like your truth, right? you're so fused to,
Bethany Valenti 1:02:20
Yeah.
nicolebyrne 1:02:21
I'm stupid, for example. That example. you know, you feel the emotion that comes with that. You act, you act in a way that sort of comes filter of I am just because
Bethany Valenti 1:02:33
with a connotation,
nicolebyrne 1:02:34
Yeah,
Bethany Valenti 1:02:34
was
nicolebyrne 1:02:35
yeah,
Bethany Valenti 1:02:35
there's some sort of,
nicolebyrne 1:02:36
yeah.
Bethany Valenti 1:02:36
there, it's loaded. It's not like, oh, I'm stupid. Like it's, I'm, you're so stupid. the thought isn't running through your head, like real quick. It is like using a tone,
nicolebyrne 1:02:49
It it
Bethany Valenti 1:02:49
like,
nicolebyrne 1:02:49
it's becoming your reality.
Bethany Valenti 1:02:51
yeah.
nicolebyrne 1:02:52
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Bethany Valenti 1:02:53
you're creating a reality in that way.
nicolebyrne 1:02:54
Right. And when you're fused to it, you're not like observing it as a thought.
Bethany Valenti 1:02:59
Mm-hmm.
nicolebyrne 1:03:00
it's like our mind is constantly and the next thing you know, you're just sort of lost in whatever those thoughts are without actually like, oh, my mind is saying that I am stupid versus I'm stupid.
Bethany Valenti 1:03:13
Yes. Yeah. And like, I know, so it might resonate with people who like the word internalized, like, to be able to say like, it's, it's like kind of fused to you in that way. you've like internalized it,
nicolebyrne 1:03:23
Yeah.
Bethany Valenti 1:03:24
Yeah.
nicolebyrne 1:03:24
I think that's a good way to put it.
Bethany Valenti 1:03:26
what would you say is your least favorite misconception about mental health work that people have? what's your pet peeve around it?
nicolebyrne 1:03:38
biggest misconception, this is a great question.
Bethany Valenti 1:03:42
Hmm.
nicolebyrne 1:03:43
I think a lot of the times, like when I do consultations with people, therapy can be very much viewed from this is just about developing skills to just make me feel less of this or make this go away.
Bethany Valenti 1:03:59
Mm-hmm.
nicolebyrne 1:04:00
Right. So. I think that oftentimes there's hope that it's a quick fix. There's hope that I'm going to wave a magic wand and I'm gonna give them all of these things to do and they're no longer gonna feel depleted or anxious or depressed. and I guess it's partially because I come from an ACT perspective.
Bethany Valenti 1:04:22
Right.
nicolebyrne 1:04:24
most of the time people come in talking about all of their problems that they wanna get rid of, and therapy really does actually support that. But from the way I work, it's really, I see therapy as a transformation towards more of how you want to feel, how you'd like to show up. That it's not just we're gonna be doing all of these things and you know, your anxiety's gonna reduce and your depression's gonna reduce. And that's very medical, right? but actually. We're gonna be taking some, some deep look at sort of what are the underpinnings of that and what are some of the patterns? What hooks you into those thought patterns or those behaviors that keep you feeling really depleted or unfulfilled? Like, we wanna understand what your hooks are, right?
Bethany Valenti 1:05:13
Mm-hmm.
nicolebyrne 1:05:14
we wanna really look at, if you value connection or if you value this or you want to feel more ease, right? how do we want, like, what are some ways to take action
Bethany Valenti 1:05:28
Mm-hmm.
nicolebyrne 1:05:29
in order to get there? So, it's work and it's also uncomfortable and there has to be a willingness for that.
Bethany Valenti 1:05:38
Absolutely.
nicolebyrne 1:05:39
So, mm-hmm.
Bethany Valenti 1:05:42
Where can people find you if they wanna learn more about you or work with you?
nicolebyrne 1:05:46
Well, the best place to find me is my website,
Bethany Valenti 1:05:51
Mm-hmm.
nicolebyrne 1:05:52
counseling with nicole.com. And, I also, so then I've got, you know, my blogs on there and there's also a link to my YouTube. and I think it, you know, my YouTube is, I think my handle is Nicole Burn dash lmft.
Bethany Valenti 1:06:10
Okay.
nicolebyrne 1:06:11
so those are the main places that you can find me?
Bethany Valenti 1:06:14
awesome. And, Nicole by B-Y-R-N-E,
nicolebyrne 1:06:20
Yes. Yes.
Bethany Valenti 1:06:22
can you say it? You said it earlier, I'm dying.
nicolebyrne 1:06:25
Like burnout. Like
Bethany Valenti 1:06:27
it
nicolebyrne 1:06:27
if you're wondering how to pronounce my last name, you can just think about one of the things that we talked about today, which is burnout, and that is just a funny coincidence.
Bethany Valenti 1:06:38
Yes. We were talking off mic about it before we got started and she said that, and I about lost it 'cause I thought it was the best.
nicolebyrne 1:06:47
I never, I never appreciated my last name so much.
Bethany Valenti 1:06:50
never appreciate it so much.
nicolebyrne 1:06:52
Yes,
Bethany Valenti 1:06:53
we'll take those gifts that we get. Thank you so much, Nicole. It's been such a great time with you.
nicolebyrne 1:06:58
Bethany, this has been so great.
